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Opening Pathways for Conversations About Race, Best in Class Real Estate Marketing, Parenting (and More!) | Podcast Interview with Anne and Dave Jones

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Hey there, you’re listening to episode 104 of the Katie Lance podcast. Today, we have a really special interview. I am so excited. I had the opportunity recently to interview Anne and Dave Jones. They are partners in life, partners in business, husband, wife, working side by side. They are co-owners of Windemere Abode up in Tacoma, Washington, and you guys, we had a great conversation. We had a very honest conversation about what it’s like to work together. As husband and wife, we talked about innovative marketing because you guys, they are doing some amazing things up in Tacoma. So we had a great conversation about marketing. We also talked about being more active in the community. They are really setting the bar for how active they are in their community, especially in the black lives matter movement. This is baked into who they are, uh, and we’ve had a really great and, and quite honestly candid conversation about racism and what it means to be anti-racist and what it means to educate yourself and, and how you can really integrate that in a really beautiful way, personally and professionally.

And, you know, for any agents who might be listening or anyone who’s listening, wondering, gosh, how can I start to be better about all of this? Listen all the way through to this podcast because Anne and Dave share some really, really great tips and ideas and examples. We also talked about parenting as well. Uh, they are the parents to two amazing boys as we are. So we have that in common and we had a great conversation about that as well. So sit back, relax. It’s going to be an awesome conversation. We’d love to hear what you think at the end. Make sure you reach out, but let’s get on with the show.

Let’s go. You’re listening to the Katie Lance podcast. If you’re an entrepreneur, social media geek, real estate pro a mom, or maybe all of the above and ready to level up your social media game, you’re in the right place. Hey everybody, it’s the Katie Lance podcast. And in this episode, you guys, I am so excited for this conversation. I am thrilled to be chatting today with Anne and Dave Jones all the way out in Tacoma, Washington. And we are going to have a great conversation today, about a lot of things. We’re going to talk about business and real estate and activism and parenting and marketing and all kinds of fun stuff. So Anne and Dave, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having us on. Is there like an applause like that? Cause that’s what I hear in my head. There should be your raving fans. We need to integrate that into the show for sure. So for those of you who are not familiar with Anne and Dave, I’m just going to take a minute. I’m going to give a proper introduction here because these are two folks that you guys definitely need to know.

So let me start with Anne. Anne is the owner and designated broker at Windermere Abode, which she and Dave opened in 2017. She’s been a licensed realtor since 2008 and has sold many homes in the greater Tacoma area during that time prior to real estate and worked as a construction manager at dyad, Inc. Along with her parents, Pete and Kathy grace and opening a window Mira boat has allowed Anne to fall to really focus on the aspects of real estate that she’s most passionate about providing best in class marketing at all price points, giving back to the communities they serve and creating a welcoming space where brokers and clients feel comfortable being their authentic selves to learn more about what a boat is all about, makes you search for inside a boat on YouTube or iTunes. I’m a big fan. And when she’s not working and enjoys running with friends, capturing Tacoma’s scenery on Instagram makes you guys follow her over there at Tacoma Jones and hanging with her guys in their mid century home. So before I welcome Dave and welcome, I’m happy you’re here today.

Thank you for having us. I was just watching Dave’s reaction. You know, it’s like when you’re sitting next to your partner and they’re listening to your bio like back, right. Making sure that everything’s okay.

I’m not fact checking. I was, I was actually kind of low key, like fanning and I was just like, I live with this person. That’s totally awesome. Not at all.

So now let’s, let’s uh, let’s love a little bit on Dave here, right? Because uh, Dave is a former educator and high school principal. Dave takes his service minded and socially responsible approach to running and operating. Windermere Abode with his beautiful wife Anne Jones. Dave and Anne were recently named the 2020 Inman News person of the year for their role in not only operating Windermere Abode during a pandemic, but also taking a lead on social justice, both in the community and in real estate circles, a trailblazer, Dave was the first black owner and Windermere has a real estate history. Dave is also a filmmaker, a podcaster, a community mentor, hip hop scene junkie. He loves all things tech and as a lifelong basketball junkie, he takes pride in bringing a new energy and approach to ownership to the real estate space. So officially Dave, welcome.

It’s always fun to have both of you. Okay. So let’s, let’s set the stage because I’m sure there’s some people who don’t know you, which I can’t imagine who does not know you if they’re in the real estate space, but for people who do not know you, I would love if you guys would share a little bit about just, you know, how long have you been in business? How long have you been together personally? Uh, what does your office look like? What your volume look like, whatever

You want to kind of share, just kind of set the stage for people know who, who don’t know you, uh, to tell them a little bit about who you bet who you guys are. So Katie, I think we’re on the exact same track. Isn’t this year a 20th anniversary this summer. Yes. A fall, but yes. Yeah. And October for you guys. So it’s our 20th anniversary in August. Um, so we’ve been married a long time, but, uh, operating the business together for the last three plus years, still married, which is really making progress quite an accomplishment. And actually, I think that’s, I mean, that’s an important part of our story. Everybody always tells us like, Oh, I cannot imagine working together. And it is hard. I’m sure you’ve had people tell you the same thing and yeah, it’s challenging, but it’s also really, really cool. Like,

Yeah, I dunno. I just feel like you have a deeper understanding of your partner. You know, like I thought I knew

When we started working together and I was like,

He didn’t know you all the way, like in our, in our work environments where, you know, as a professional. And so I think it, you gain a new, found respect for your partner in this process, I think, and what their strengths are and versus your strengths and how you compliment each other. And I, and we always knew we had complimentary skillsets and dispositions, but you know, it really came to fruition when we actually really started the business together. So,

I mean, I’m obviously the very calm, even keel one, low stress. And, uh, it’s, it’s a very nice, it’s a very nice partnership that way. And so, um, we have built, I think just an amazing office, our, our group of people that both, you know, work with us, our staff here, and our brokers that work with us, we always feel like we are the luckiest. So I guess the conversation around, Oh, it must be hard to work together. I think some of the work is hard, but what we do, I really love. So that makes it, that makes it easier to endure those days.

Yeah. And you know, like as far as the vision for the office and, you know, starting the office up, it, it, the funny thing about all of the content that we produce, or at least the video of the vlog, for example, like when she was talking about this office, when we, I mean, we’re looking at the street right now, we were walking up the street and she had this vision and I was shooting her listing videos before, like I started shooting listing videos. And so like, I look at her vision and then I just kind of put it, make it happen. But like, the funny thing is, is we don’t really, we never really, like, she never directed me on any of that. It was kind of just was like, we have the same aesthetic and I kind of saw what she was looking for. And then we just did it

And we had a deliberate there. And I think it would be, I know you want to get to this later. Uh, also one of the things Dave’s loves about me is I can never stay on an agenda in linear format. So I know you laid it out, but I was going to say, we’re obviously going to talk about marketing at some point in time. And one of the things that I think is so important is that when we opened abode, we had this conversation about doing a behind the scenes vlog for the, for the office, you know, in the beginning, it was about sort of building the hype around the office itself and the space and just where we were at and raising awareness. But we also knew like normalizing black and Brown faces in the real estate space. That just exposure, I mean, is, is one part of that process. Um, Dave being the only black Windemere owner, like that’s crazy when you actually sit down and think about that, but the more he shows up in those spaces, the more normal it is. And so, uh, we knew it was the same thing in real estate where it’s just like, all right, let’s, let’s give people a visual cue of what we’re doing here, what we look like, like this is what a busy, productive, real estate office looks like. And it might not be what you were thinking. Right?

Yeah. That’s great. So that’s probably a good segue to talk a little bit about marketing and, you know, I mean, obviously you guys are doing a lot of stuff. You’ve got the podcast, the blog, which we will we’ll link all that, all that stuff below in the show notes. Um, have you felt like there’s been one or two big standout items with your marketing that have really made a big difference to help you in terms of, you know, recruiting retention? That’s always a big conversation with, with, you know, with running a brokerage. Um, and I know obviously being a part of your community is super important. We’ll get more into that as well. But what are some of the things that you think have made a big difference as far as your marketing?

When, when I’ll say one thing, then you take it since that’s your, your maybe. But when we opened, we knew that one of our mantras was going to be that we wanted to reduce the barriers to implementation for our agents. And so we, you know, we opened with eight of us, there’s 25 people selling now, and we’re an intentionally smaller group. Um, that was on purpose because we knew some of the services that we provide. We just couldn’t scale to a big office size. And so our goal is always to shine the light on our agents and put their faces and their good work out there. And Dave does an amazing job of that.

You, she, you said exactly what I was going to say because no, but I think that that’s that like, that’s what I lay up at night thinking about is like, how can we put our people out there? What else can we do to provide value for our folks? You know, like in, by our folks, I mean, our brokers, uh, so for me, that’s that I think when you asked that question, I thought about is just mindset. You know, like my mindset is about them and not myself. And so

For instance, like Dave recording the podcast, so he makes space every week. And if somebody wants to jump on and talk about like, Hey there, where there’s a crazy market anomaly in one of the cities in our area, you know, the stats just got released. Let’s talk about that. Um, if, if you can just say like, Hey, show up in this window of time and just come talk about real estate, because, you know, I come from the more traditional realtors perspective, which is you’re running around with your hair on fire, and you’ve got all these great ideas and you want to implement these things. Um, but you just maybe don’t have the time to execute on it. He created a pathway for them to step in and, and do that. We’ve got other people who are really great content creators. And so I think the flip side is that then they’ve got a resource in Dave where it’s like, Hey, I’m, you know, I’m doing, Derek’s got a podcast, Nick’s been doing some great, um, candid videos for Instagram. Like they’ve got somebody that they can talk to and bounce those ideas off of and, you know, from your own work that that’s helpful.

Yeah. Just kind of, and it’s funny, I was just talking to Derek and he was like, when do you, uh, are you going to be in there today? And I was just, cause he just wanted to come in and talk about, you know, stuff, you know, and that’s, that’s tech, tech stuff, content marketing, you know, but that’s the value that’s for him. That’s what the value looks like for someone else that may be like, I don’t, I don’t really like videos. So then, all right, well, we have a podcast. Is that work? You know, so I’m always just thinking like what’s going to work to get some content out there for you.

And, and, you know, I mean, it’s nice because I already had leveraged a lot of the, in my leverage video in my marketing. So from a, from a, again, more of a traditional real estate perspective, you know, we know how to yield, um, results from those things. So listing videos, I mean, great marketing on our listings at all price points. Like that’s one of the things we take a ton of pride in. Um, so that’s just an assumption that, that we do a beautiful job in how we handle our listings, but we do a lot of that work in-house and that’s how we produce a really consistent product. And that’s something that I’m very, very proud of. Um, you know, when we opened abode the median sales price was a lot lower than it is now.

I think it was around two 30 and Tacoma at that time.

Well, and, and, you know, we’re more like four,

Four 50

Compared to the market that you live in Katie. Like that’s, that’s crazy, right? That number is low compared to a lot of other big booming markets. And yet our realtors produce listing videos for their properties, do a beautiful job with their, you know, professional photos. I mean, we have a very high standard because we want people to think of that when they think of the company, we want that to be just a, an assumption that they have best in class marketing, no matter what the price point is of the property.

Well, another thing for me too, is like when we started it off and we were thinking about the name and the logo and things like that, we intentionally didn’t put real estate in the name because I felt like it opened up the Avenue for other things. For example, we have, we do collabs with, uh, local apparel companies, you know, and just like, that’s a different, it just it’s a boat, you know? And so it could be lifestyle, it could be real estate. It could be, uh, content in terms of mentorship community, you know, like it’s more than just real estate. And if we as real estate agents, I feel like we have a duty to be, uh, you know, not, not gatekeepers is the wrong word, but you know, we’re community superheroes. Like we were supposed to be shouting this community from the rooftops and helping all people do all things

And, and what we’re trying, you know, what I think is different or that we hope is different is that we’re trying to make it so our realtors can show up exactly as they are, whether it’s in their professional space or in their personal space, like at home on the weekends, you know, there’s not a, there’s not a blazer that they have to put on to come to work and become real tour that when they’re out there volunteering in their community, their realtor, when they’re at the farmer’s market in their neighborhood, they are the same realtor when they’re taking their kids to school, wherever that’s at, they don’t have to, you know, send their kids to a certain school or be a part of a certain club to be a successful realtor. We’re wanting to embrace them exactly as they are. And so it is important that we make this a space that everybody can show up, um, just as the amazing individuals they are and that their clients feel welcome in the same way. Right.

Well, and I love the word that you both use the opening up pathways, you know, kind of opening up this pathway for people to explore, being creative and maybe explore some, some ideas with marketing that maybe they wanted to do, or weren’t sure how to do. I think that there’s a lot of still a lot of nervousness, you know, with agents who they, they want to embrace technology or social media or video or podcasting, but they’re not sure how to start or where to do it. They don’t want to look silly, they want to look professional. And so I think that, you know, it’s, it’s so valuable that you, that you are opening up those pathways, you know, to, to let people explore.

And there’s, I mean, there’s still, and there’s not a compromise in what our expectations are for professional standards either. Like we expect our people to be really good. We expect them to be well-trained and great negotiators. And so it’s not a matter of, of shifting on that level. It’s a matter of just really accepting someone like in their full humanity and not asking them to change that part of themselves for, for the job. And, um,

I think a realistic take on that too, is that still, there’s still an evolution in that process. Like I’ve watched a lot of people start out in real estate and they don’t know like what their voice is or even myself, like when I got it, because Ann was already, already had her voice, but, um, now I enter into the space as an owner and it’s just like, well, what’s my voice. And it took me some time to figure that out. Uh, so, you know, I get it for real estate for any brokers that are listening, like that might have questions about marketing or where they, where they’re going with their voice, or like, how is it, how do I be authentic? Like, it still is a process to like, and that’s what our goal is to help them through that

Carry in that window because you start extending yourself and the results don’t come instantly. And a lot of people through this, Katie where it’s, it’s like be human, be relatable. Um, and that is,

There’s also this awkward phase of not quite knowing what you’re doing and not quite producing what you want to love, the quality that you want to produce. And then you add the layer

Into that of people who have been historically and systemically, like locked out of this industry and out of home ownership coming into this space, uh, there’s an added element that those of us who came up without those barriers inside the industry, you know, all I have to worry about is, do I look or sound silly, right? Uh, or, you know, do I feel like maybe I don’t know that real estate terminology, and I’m not comfortable talking about it in a video. I don’t have those other layers on top of me. And so I think as owners and managers, there’s an opportunity there to just recognize that it’s not something so about special treatment, it’s just acknowledging that like coaching somebody through that or helping them find their voice. A lot of times, I think people are encouraged to leave a certain amount of their identity, um, over here in order to sound like a successful realtor or look like a successful realtor. And boy, that’s something that we, I think we have to be careful of in this industry.

Yeah, no, I couldn’t agree more. And I, and I feel like a lot of the conversations that you and I have had an over a glass of wine over the years, and, uh, we’ve had a lot of conversations over the, you know, about things like that. And, uh, that’s probably another good segue for my next question, which was, you know, I love that, that you guys bring light to a lot of these quite, quite frankly kind of uncomfortable conversations for a lot of people, you know, about, you know, what is a quote unquote successful realtor look like? And, and you guys are very active and vocal in how you feel about things like politics and activism and, and, and your community. I see you making sandwiches with your boys, you know, all the time for, uh, you know, for, for your local community and black lives matter.

And, you know, as you know, I, I’d had a conversation pretty recently with, with some mutual friends of ours, the divas, uh, and we had a conversation about the fact that that’s not like a marketing ploy. I think a lot of people think like, Oh, that’s like a piece of like, there’s some sort of like ploy in there. You know what I mean? And so I’d love to just kind of talk to you guys about it, because it seems so baked into who you are personally, but also professionally. And I think you both just pull it off beautifully in the sense that people know who you are, they are attracted to, to that, but you’re also, I think opening people’s eyes up to conversations, you know, that need to be had. So I would just love for you guys to kind of talk a little bit about it and, and share your, you know, your thoughts about that as well.

Well, could you go ahead?

No, I was going to say, you know, what’s crazy about this whole thing. Like, I am an all lives matter person, like in, at my core, I’m an educator. Like, that’s what I’m about. I’m about reaching literally every person in the room and in whatever way I can. And so I found it interesting that when it came to black lives matter and I say it loud and proud, and I’m proud of my blackness, um, that it became that. And I’m like, well, yeah, that’s, that’s obvious. And so for me as a hashtag, and so all I’ve heard, not all I’ve heard, just it’s fascinating how it gets turned into this or that or that or that. Yeah. A lot of times it’s about perspective and where that other person is coming from. I just had a conversation the other day about someone said it was ghetto.

And I was like, what do you mean by that? You know, cause I had a perception of what they thought I thought they were saying, but then they broke it down and I was like, Oh, okay, well I see where you’re coming from. But here’s why I think that that’s in there. And they were like, yeah, I totally got it. Like it’s rooted in oppression. You know what I mean? So, and that tells me that they’re at least doing some reflection and some work on, on that, but like, uh, yeah, just the whole black lives matter. Black lives matter thing to me is just a phrase it’s literally like, yeah, it literally is what it is and it gets turned into everything else.

And I think you’re saying that because there’s all these people who are afraid to afraid to touch it, who want to label it as, uh, you know, something else has. I, I mean, the, you go as far as people who talk about wanting to call it a, a terrorist movement, it’s just like people are fighting against that. But, um, we, there is a predominant, uh, notion, not just in real estate, but in lots of professional industries that you should separate business and politics. And I think if we don’t acknowledge and Dave, I get, um, I’m going to win the prize. Cause I’m going to say it first in this podcast. But if we don’t acknowledge it, that’s totally like rooted in white supremacy. From the standpoint of like keeping, you can still say a day, like is decided is to keep people in line, right?

Like we don’t talk about those things because we don’t want it to get uncomfortable because we want to maintain the status quo. And, and I mean, I am a Sperry risk averse person. Like I like things to be safe and I like to be in control of things. And certainly one of the parts I’ve recognized is we we’ve had our safety and our comfort. I’m talking, Katie and I are talking across video in this podcast right now. But it’s like as, as white women, we don’t get to keep that and also deliver on these other promises where we’re saying, we want to participate. We want to make life better. Like we want things to improve for, uh, other people around us. Like that’s something that we have to be willing to let go. And so I will say that we’ve, you know, we’ve pushed out into some things occasionally where I’ve thought, should we check on this?

Should we do this? And at the end of the day, it’s just like, you know, what if we lost, what if we lost everything? What if nobody bought any houses from us anymore? Which by the way, it hasn’t been a problem. Well, and our agents are really productive and our community has been insanely supportive, but it’s like, what if we lost everything professionally? You know, financially it’s like we would be in personally as a, as a, as a couple, as a family, as a mother, I know it’s exactly what I need to be doing for, um, our sons. And frankly like as somebody in their early forties and starting to think about what’s my, what’s my impact. Like what, what Mark am I going to leave on the world? And, uh, and that just kind of helps me push through those moments. It’s much bigger and much more important than whether or not I’m going to lose business or the office is going to lose business, or we’re going to repel an agent who, um, is, is turned off by us, standing for him.

And I think the reason why that, that works is because you genuinely care about people, same goes for me. So like going back to the marketing ploy piece, which is like, yeah, it’s not a marketing ploy because it’s totally like human,

But you have to, but you have to believe in it if you’re saying it and you don’t actually believe in it, if you’re not willing to stand behind it, you’re not willing to risk something, um, to, to actually deliver on those principles. That’s when you do run the risk of it being marketing only, or, you know, tokenizing someone, um, I think that’s,

But, and, and let’s just be real. Like the, the demographics are shifting, you know, when we look at, you know, you see percentages and it’s like, all right, 70 th the, the demographics of the United States, 73% white, but that, that number is actually 73. That it’s 60% when you th when you consider white, non-Hispanic that number drops to 60%. So like, it’s really actually 60% is what we’re talking about. So the world is that our country is changing. Um, and I read some stats this morning on it, and I was just, I couldn’t sleep. So I was reading. I was like, what is our, what our demographics and where are we going with this? And so they’re, they’re predicting by like 20, 45. And, you know, like really soon, 20, 44, somewhere around there that like, it’s going to be a minority majority, you know, like where that table is going to turn, because there’s less, uh, you know, the, the white non-Hispanic group has the, I think the infant rate is like lower than other groups. It’s a declining population. So, I mean, because we’re just, we’re just mixing. I mean, there’s just, our kids included, you know, like we’re, we’re, that’s fascinating.

Circle it back around is that we knew when we opened the office. I mean, we talked about the fact that, like, we envisioned ourselves, forward-looking that? We said, well, where do we think the industry is going? Where do we know our community is going? And what kind of values do we expect that the next generation of realtors and home buyers are going to hold? And I think we, we, through our doors open with the idea that like, this is where it’s at, and this is where it’s headed. Um, and, and that’s something I think for a lot of offices to consider, I was joking because I was on a training this morning for designated brokers. And I was like scrolling through the screen cause I’m like, am I the youngest person on this? And there were a couple other people. And then I was like, Oh my gosh, being in charge of a real estate office makes you so old.

Um, but I, I think with the average age and it’s coming down a little bit, I think now it’s like, uh, late fifties, the average age of a realtor. Um, we just have to look, we have a huge generation coming behind us. Don’t like the emojis we use or the way we part our hair, or exactly are not going to stand for this garbage of like business and politics are separate. They want to know that as a corporation, like what values do you hold? And I think they’re going to make choices about where they spend money based on where you stand in relationship to humanity.

I have a story about that. I can, I can give some context to that. So I, I hope with the Tacoma public schools with the financial entrepreneurship and real estate club. So we started that up, uh, this year and it’s district-wide. So I was one of the first meetings we had about 73 kids in there. And I was sitting there talking and, you know, talking about what I did and all that stuff. And then, you know, I, it was crickets, right. I mean, they they’re like, who is this guy? So then I, we opened up for questions and someone asked like, so where do you stand on? Like social justice? And I was just like, Oh, duh dove. Right in, you know, I was just like, Oh yeah, that’s, that’s my jam. And literally no joke hand started raising in the room, asking me questions about real estate, asking me questions about everything else. And it was just like, okay, I get it. Like, y’all do not even care about what I think until, you know, where I stand on certain things. And this is a really diverse group of kids. I mean, there’s every shade under the sun in this group. So it’s a really fascinating thing with this next generation.

Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I see that just with our boys, it’s basically I have right around the same age as his, your boys. And it’s, it is interesting to see, you know, that, that next generation and, you know, I think, I think to your point, just that not having that separation of like personal and business and politics and, and, you know, I had someone to reach out to me, you know, during the summer with, with, uh, everything happening with George Floyd and black lives matter. And I personally had a little bit of a, you know, a bit, not a little bit of big eyeopening, you know, moment as I, I, I, you know, I know, and you probably saw that just, and I’m still working through a lot of that, but I remember having an agent reach out to me and she’s like, you keep talking about social injustice.

I, I don’t know what you mean. And I was like, how, what are you not confused? You know? But I think we kind of live in our, especially as a white woman, we T we can live in those little like white middle-class, you know, very safe bubble. And, uh, so it’s, it’s just nice to be able to have, you know, conversations like this, and to be able to talk about the fact that, you know, sometimes do got to get a little uncomfortable. And that’s, that’s a piece of it because not the whole world does not look like, you know, X, Y, or Z

Have to get a little uncomfortable to recognize like a glimpse, just even a sliver thinking again. And I’ve told Katie some of the stories of things that have happened, you know, with our brokers and in our office. Um, you got to put yourself out there and to, to just try and understand that. And of course, I, you know, I live with a black man and have for a long time. And so I get all of the stories firsthand, but that’s part of like, if that’s not your situation, which I understand, I have proximity to learn these things and I’m deeply invested, but that’s about getting to your, to your realtor association, getting on a board, getting in your community. I mean, there’s really, there’s zero excuse in this current moment in time to not be listening and believing black women with men and women. Um, you don’t have to know someone you can get on the internet. People are sharing their heart, they are giving education away for free. You know, there’s all these opportunities. Um, yeah,

You have to be proactive because I will say for myself, not to interrupt you my own podcast here, but I felt like, you know, we live in this world of, uh, we live in this world of algorithms, right? It’s the whole social media thing. So you see what you mostly you interact with. So if you were only seeing and interacting with people who look and sound like you, you have to be proactive. And I really learned that myself just, you know, it’s like, you gotta be proactive to find those voices, to find, uh, you know, a diversity of people who don’t sound and act and talk like you. And, you know, it’s, you’ve gotta be proactive.

Absolutely. Correct. And here’s why, here’s why, here’s why I was looking at that demographic stuff this morning, because I went down, I honestly like, and I don’t even think any of this is politics. It’s like humanity, but I, for whatever reason looked up Candice on, I don’t even follow the woman. I don’t even know what she’s talking about. I was like, I wonder what she’s talking about right now. So I go to her and then I see some, some, some dude in the comments and I followed and I looked go down the rabbit hole. And I’m like, okay, he’s saying all these things, this is, this is the opposite side of the argument. And I wonder why they’re saying that. So then I go and start looking up stuff. I can, I’m curious, I’m naturally curious. Anyway, I like to learn. And so like, that’s how I approach it. Like, and I think if everyone just approached it with a curiosity or a question, as opposed to wherever their, their heels are or wherever their feet are, I think that we would go further, faster.

Great. Yeah. Yeah. There’s no excuse to not pursue that. And I know that I recognize for instance, that like the voice, the loudest voice that I was in proximity to was a black man. And so a few years ago, I intentionally started following a lot more black women in my feed, bought a ton of books by black women. Like I recognized that I needed to hear voices of black women, like in my space more because I hear a lot from Dave who, by the way is one black man. He doesn’t represent all black. Right. So those resources are, are out there. And I think I really would encourage people to plug in.

So I would imagine that there’s probably people listening who are like, well, that sounds, that sounds great. I, you know, I, maybe they, they, they want to get a little bit more, you know, active and they’re either a little bit their local community or just, they, they want to be a little bit more active and, and taking a stand and, and kind of, you know, just, just be more active, you know, kind of less playing it safe. Do you have any advice for someone like that or maybe, you know, a step or two that someone might take to kind of, I don’t know, go outside their comfort zone a little bit and, uh, you know, start to do some of the things we’re talking about.

I don’t want to lose this one. Cause the number one thing is to listen, to ask the ask and listen, we are very proactive people like as realtors, we’re problem solvers, we’re up in the mix of things. Um, but there’s somebody out there, uh, who’s already asking for help with something and, and you just need to look around for it. And, uh, and just be of service instead of sort of taking charge of the situation. I guess that’s from a personal perspective, like I’m learning to say, what can we do? Where can we fit in, instead of the idea that like, we’ve got to organize and start everything. And, um, how about just lending my time and my voice or my resources to, um, somebody who already is doing the good work in your community, but maybe could benefit from your reach and your connection.

Yeah. And to add to that, I would say also starting with inter internally, like where you stand in all of this, because when you start to do that work, you’re going to face, you’re going to face people who are going to question you, you’re going to face people who are going to, you know, question why you’re saying that, and that’s not right. And that’s not true. So you have to be rooted in like, whatever it is you got to really be like, no, I’ve done some reading and this is where I stand on it. And this is my experience. And this is where I, I thought this at one point in time, and now I feel like this way and I didn’t see this part. Um, so I think because that’s, that’s because it is, you are giving up some social capital, uh, in some ways with white people, you know, like in general. And so like that. Yeah. Just being, being resolute and where you stand and why the why behind, why are you doing this? And where, where do you stand in it? And then yeah, go out and then find whatever it is because yeah. You’re going to face some opposition for sure. Family. Yeah. You’re going to face it from your own people. You love the most. Yeah.

Dave and I had talked about, uh, the fact that like, this is going to be our lifelong journey and we re we revisit that a lot. And it’s something that, again, for someone who solves problems for a living, for someone who pops in and you sell a house, you get to be a hero and you get to fix something and whatever. I mean, the, the urge to tidy it up, how can I solve this problem? How can I, and it’s like, Nope, like this is, this is not going to be something that’s going to be buttoned up in our lifetime. And yet it’s still worthy work. And, and, you know, are we moving from conversations and learning and Epiphanes and stuff into solid action in the like, going forward? I know for me, that’s how I’m trying to push myself is how are we actually affecting systemic change and getting behind the people who have been doing the work and asking for, um, or you know, who know what they want and, and lining up and figuring out how to support them. Um, we gotta move from white fragility, like copies of white fragility into reparations in our communities.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think when you realize that way, you can’t just tidy it up and like a five step program, because I definitely have felt that way. It’s like, Oh, well just tell me what I need to do. Like, what’s the three steps, you know, it’s like, Oh, it’s this, uh, you know, like you said, it’s probably not going to get solved in our lifetime, but what are some things that we can do to be, to be proactive? And, uh, you know, they probably kind of leads me to the next question, which is like the next generation, right. With, with your boys. And I think one of the things I’ve always really related with you guys on is we’ve got the, you know, the boy, the boys in our house, and you’re like me, I’m like the only female in the house. Uh, and which is great. Sometimes other times it’s a little crazy. So, um, let’s talk a little bit about that. I mean, how has, how has that been with everything we’re talking about, you know, with activism, but also just, you know, parenting during a pandemic. I don’t know about you guys, but it’s been a little crazy. We talking about like, how you compare me to Carl or like Eddie has a Rex at her house. Yes.

I was just thinking of like arguments. I wonder how many other people like our kids. So we have dinner together almost every night, because a lot of times we’re at the office and we work a lot. And, um, but we sit down to dinner almost every night and our kids literally, I think if their eyes could roll any further back in their head, when we’re like talking about race again at the dinner table as to, uh, biracial children, like multiracial children, um, they get a lot of it. And, uh, and then Taylor Taylor, our youngest, his teacher’s like, man, he’s really artistic.

Yeah. We talk about it every night. We talk about it pretty much,

But I think it’s, it’s interesting. I mean, they, um, I hope that they’re equipped to be leaders in, in their classes, in their community, which they will be. I mean, and

Even like understanding like down to their, their names, like we named them intentionally because we knew they would be biracial children or multiracial children. And yeah, no, I’m glad that worked out. It would have been awkward. That would have been a pastor would love him. Um, but still though, like, no, I think that that’s A good thing. People like hearing people laughing, especially right now, but no, but all the way down to naming them, you know, we named them intentionally Wilson and Taylor, like you couldn’t and with the last name Jones, like you couldn’t decipher like what they were on a resume, you know, like yeah. You get to choose yeah.

Identity, like their path as best they can. Although, you know, we have different conversations and I think that’s where we’ve had poignant dialogue. Katie is like, we’ve had different conversations about the differences between the things we talked to our boys about and the things you talk to your boys about, um, you know, the necessity in that. And I’m heartened to know though that you’re having probably conversations with your boys that you wouldn’t have a few years ago. And I think that’s the case for like, I’ve shared that moment with a lot of, with a lot of friends. And if somebody is not, that’s a pretty big moment. And you talk about, uh, families and sort of what the pandemic has looked like for different families. And it’s just like, if you haven’t had a reckoning around racism this last year, we were, there might be some distance between us at this point, because there’s been, it’s been a very regulatory year.

Yeah. And I’m not saying people need to be woke and know everything. It’s just a matter of reflection. That’s all like looking back at yourself and looking at where you stand. Like I said, and just like, okay, I’m, I’m here. I’m, I’m curious now, you know, like, I’m at least like, like let’s just start there. You know what I mean? Like, I’m just curious, um, so open to hearing about your work or whatever, like, because yeah. There’s

But pandemic life, Katie, it’s a lot of beans like trying to get, trying to get two teenage sons to make their own lunch while they’re online schooling, they were at the office had to take showers,

Take showers, comb your hair, wash your face, come on, man. You made your stocks. Can you put some clothes on bro? Like the same?

Yeah. It sounds like the same conversations. We’re having a standard of hygiene at our house. And, uh, and I did the deodorant conversation, like know, have you put on deodorant today?

Just this morning, I smell like Fritos and, and onion rings.

And we have dinner table. Like if you can’t maintain basic manners here at our dinner table, we open, like

I’m not taking you anywhere.

Uh, vacations together, love to travel. And so we talk about trips that we’ve taken and trips, we hope to take last night, we were planning where we’re going to go first together. So that’s how we’ve gotten through.

Yeah. And we, yeah. And we talk about like also just how they’ve been handling this. We’re really proud of them. Uh, and also we, we remind them too, like, Hey, you you’ve had every, I just got done saying it this morning. I was like, you’ve had every resource, you know, to, to make this, to make this work. And we’re really proud of you for one. But the second thing is, yeah, you’ve had every resource and we’re blessed in that way. So,

And you know, Katie that, uh, so I make them do the snacks for schools project with me. And we have a little bit of a blowout at the dinner table. And the other night on Monday and Monday nights, we pack bags. We do, uh, four dozen bags, um, every week for the last year and take them to our local school. We partner with educators there and they get them distributed to the family, um, to families that need them. And

I love watching this every week on Instagram stories. I don’t know if I feel like you always give me the behind the scenes of what this looks like.

You know, sometimes I know people that struggle with whether or not to talk about their, their charitable endeavors and I don’t do it for the Pat on the back, but I do it because I want people who donate to know that their money is actually getting put to use and talk about it. People people give, I mean, people really do want to help. And so, um, even though I do the shopping and the boys helped me pack the bags every week, the financial donations from our community have, have sustained this huge. And uh, so I’m like, all right, we’ve been doing this for 50 weeks. As of this last week, you guys can pack these bags, you’re off school Monday. Like you can pack these bags, we’re going to be at the office. You go ahead and do this. And I come home and it’s a hot mess, right? Like the bags all sideways, the boxes are kind of all over the kitchen, very serious conversation about this at dinner. And,

Um, I’m like, come on you guys, this

Is, this has been a year of rehearsals on this. You can do this. And they just said, you know, it’s hard when we don’t know sort of where the end product is going. And it w we, I mean, first I was mad, but then we had to just laugh about it because it’s like, we talk a lot about how they have so much. And there’s a lot of families who are struggling to get through this, or maybe their parents are essential workers and they’ve been home alone with nobody there to support them. And that we’re just sending this food as a little bit of love and support into those households. Um, it’s been a long stretch for kids. And so we try, but I mean, kids are kids and they learn on their own timeframe. And, uh, our younger son was feeling very responsible, um, and emotional about it. But I just, I think we have to have those tough conversations with our kids. And hopefully it resonates.

Yeah. Sometimes our kids it’s hard when they don’t, they don’t see that, like, that final piece of like, who does this go to? Or what does that actually look like? And we’ve been using, or trying to use the word, imagine a whole lot later what this could feel like, imagine what this liquid would look like. And, you know, I don’t know if that helps at all, but

Maybe the science of it, like after we work out, our oldest isn’t necessarily a sports guy. So, you know, we try to find some way to get work out. And I say, you know, don’t you feel good after this? Like, that’s a natural high it’s called, you know, you get serotonin or endorphin. Sorry. Um, and then same thing, that guy, he got funk.


The same thing goes for when there’s definitely a scientific fact, like when you’re giving and you’re helping other people, um, there’s, it feels good. And that releases off, uh, and energy, you know, so, I mean, I forget what it was actually called. People can Google it,

We help the kids. And what we’ve told our office is like, Hey, we were really lucky to be able to continue to work during the pandemic. Like really lucky that we were able to continue to help people buy and sell houses and that our industry to, you know, didn’t get sidelined. And so we have a duty to, to give back in the midst of that. I mean, at this particular moment with the pandemic in mind, like we have a literal duty to return some of those dollars to our community and help take care of people. And I think that’s, you know, that’s the same, no matter what, because without our community, um, obviously we’re, we’re not doing our job, but this last year I’ve thought about like, Oh, realtors. We are experts on the restaurants and local artists and musicians and all of these groups that have been really impacted by the shutdown. And so it’s like, how are we supporting them? Cause I want them to be there when we come back online, uh, they make this community a rich and interesting place to live and do work. Um, and so we, we really need to be taken care of them. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been such a great conversation. I know we could probably chat for another, I don’t know, probably another hour or two about all this stuff before we wrap it up to you here today. Is there anything else that you, either, one of you wanted to share? Anything else that we didn’t, but I didn’t ask you or anything else you wanted to touch on before we wrap it up today?

The one thing I think like your, uh, that I have learned watching Dave, um, as a content creator and as a creative, um, as a person on the other side who sometimes has had to push myself into that, or like adopt the Katie Lance, uh, process,


Is it, um, Dave practices a lot to be good at what he does. He reads and researches and, uh, just, I mean, I watch him and you’ll be editing. I mean, your latest, your blog that you started for yourself, the Jackie Robinson files like that was to grow your skills, right?

Yeah. I’m literally practicing out in the open and a lot of times, um, you know what I learn in that or something I do in that you’ll an inside of boat, you know, in a different way. It’ll, it’ll look the same, but it’ll, it’s weird. You just kinda, you’re in a space, a creative space and you just kind of, I don’t know, it’s weird. There’s synergy there.

It’s not, it’s not weird. That’s the point that I’m making is that like, you work really hard at being good at those things that you do. It doesn’t just happen. So I think a lot of times people say like, Oh, I can’t do that. I don’t know how to do that. You know, that’s over my head. I don’t know who’s going to do that for me. I mean, I know you have your own editor, Katie, but because you’re a very, very good delegator, you know how your time

And it happened day one, right? A lot of people think, well, I want to be this level. It’s like, well, you wanna get to the major leagues, you got to start over here and little league, it’s a process.

It will be like anything you have to, you gotta, you gotta eat some dirt. You gotta start. Yeah. Start it. You gotta get it from the mud, as they say, you know what I mean? It’s so like, even with our company, like that first year was, was a gut check. You know what I mean? Like it was like, yeah, we’re here literally every day. And every day was the new day. Every day I had, I’d been in my last career for 14, 15, 14 years, 15 years. And like I had a schedule, I knew what was coming up, where then you can jump into this new realm where it’s like, all right. I don’t even know what the next day looks like in this time of the season. You know? I don’t know. So it was a huge learning curve. And, um, and yeah, it was a lot of late nights. It was a lot of learning. It was a lot of looking at forms. It was a lot of like understanding the business and yeah,

The Fred through this conversation we’re having is, I mean, to move forward, you have to both push yourself, but also get into a place of some discomfort and invest in those things that are important to you to get to the other side. And so,

So I guess I would say like for brokers that are listening or anyone that’s listening is like, just do that thing, like fail forward and, and it’s okay. Start where you’re at, whether it’s in the race conversation, start where you’re at, be where your feet are. If it’s in the content creation space, just pick one thing and just like do that, you know, and then you’ll get better at it. If you just spend time. There’s YouTube. There’s YouTube, man. Like when I was a kid, I would’ve leveled up so much faster

Something. Yeah.

And it is going to take time. Yeah. Like it is going to take that one hour on the couch at 10 o’clock, maybe a night, a week. You know what I mean? Like yeah.

Yeah. And it’s pushing through that discomfort, you know, like, like you both said, anytime you’re learning something new or you’re doing something out of your comfort zone, it’s uncomfortable, you know, and, but that’s just, it’s just part of the process. Yeah, for sure. So, well, that is a, that’s a beautiful place to wrap all this up. This has been, this has been so much fun. Thank you both for just taking this time and sharing your heart and sharing your journey. It’s, it’s just been such a pleasure to have both of you here with us today.

Thank you. Thank you for having us to talk to you.

Absolutely. And I know going to, we’re going to be dropping some links below for, for any, uh, any places that people can connect with you guys. What, what are a few places that, uh, that you would like to send people if people are not yet connected? What is the best way

Windemere Abode? I’m on Instagram, YouTube, iTunes, all the, uh, all the spots and you kind of see what we’re, what we’re working on. And, uh, we’d love to hear from people. And we are, our team does an awesome job with referrals. I’m always really proud of that, that we handle other people’s business and referrals really well. So, uh, let us know if we can take care of you. Yeah.

Awesome. Well, thank you again, both so much. It’s been so great having you both here today and for all of our listeners, you know, if you enjoyed this podcast, the best thing you can do is share it out. You know, take a, take a screenshot of your phone as you’re listening and tag myself, tag Dave tag and tag a tag is solid and share the word out. We sure. Appreciate it. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast, leave us a review as well. We always appreciate it. And until next time, have a wonderful day and we’ll see you next time. Bye for now.

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