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Accessibility 101

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Hey there, you’re listening to episode 123 of the Katie Lance podcast. In this podcast. I had the pleasure of interviewing Shelly Brisbin, who is an expert in accessibility. And you guys, we had such a great conversation about how to make your website and your social media content more accessible, right?

For people who have visual or audio or just different disabilities. Sometimes if you are someone who does not have a disability, or if you don’t know someone in your family who does it may not be something that we think about. And so I am so excited to be able to chat with an expert, and she gave so many great tips and advice, for just making our content, making our websites and everything we put out there just more accessible for everybody. All right. My friends, I know you’re going to enjoy this. Let’s get on with the show

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Katie Lance podcast. I am so excited for our conversation here today. We have a very special guest today. Shelly Brisbin is our guest and you know, we are going to have a great conversation all about accessibility. I actually did a podcast a few episodes ago, just kind of sharing my own personal experience with some of the things we’re doing with our website and social media, in terms of just making things more inclusive, more accessible. And I am quick to say, I am very much not an expert on this subject. And I mentioned in that podcast, I said, Hey, if any of our listeners can recommend someone to interview, please let us know. And one of our listeners reached out and said, yes, I’ve heard Shelly on other podcasts. If you can get her, she would be great. And so I’m so thrilled to have you with us today. Shelly, thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me. And I’m grateful to your listener who thought of recommending me. Absolutely.

Absolutely. So for those of you who don’t know Shelly, I’ve got a brief bio here just to tell you a little bit about her. Shelly is a writer, editor, and podcaster, and she recently published the eighth edition of her book, iOS Access for All: Your Comprehensive Guide to Accessibility for iPad, iPhone and iPod Touch. By day she’s a web editor and a producer for Texas standard, a daily public radio news show. And in 2009, Shelly produced the award winning audio documentary 36 seconds. That changed everything, how the iPhone learned to talk. She’s an accomplished journalist, podcaster are and so much more so again, welcome Shelly. So happy to have you with us today.

Thanks. It’s always so weird to hear your own bio read back to you. And it’s like, oh yeah, I guess I did some of that stuff.

Right. I know. I know sometimes it’s a nice little pat on the back, right. So I would love to just start at the beginning, for listeners who may not be familiar with you and your work, can you just share a little bit about your background and how did you get into this work of teaching and, and writing about accessibility.

Sure. Well, I have been a technology journalist for about 30 years and I always focused on how to teaching people how to use technology. I worked for a magazine called Mac User back in the nineties where we were all about helping people use the Mac to the best of their ability. And I’ve, I’ve sort of followed that along with writing books about using the Mac writing books about wireless networking and web development. And, you know, that’s just the thing I always did. But the thing that I never really wrote about was that I’m also a person with a visual impairment. And so when I was doing all those books, I was writing for a mainstream audience, people who didn’t have any kind of disability. And there was a point in my life when a couple of things happened simultaneously, the first of which is it became harder and harder to sell technology books, which was what I was mostly doing and, you know, paper books, not so much a thing anymore.

Um, and so I was looking for new things. I could write about a new ways for distributing them. And the second thing I realized is that that technology had become much more accessible to people with disabilities in that companies like Apple and Google were adding accessibility features to their products, but there wasn’t a lot of information online about how to use them and what was out there was really superficial. And so having never written about it, I just sort of looked a little inward and said, Hey, you know, this is you’ve used these technologies yourself. And you’ve also found ways to work around them when they didn’t exist. Maybe there’s something you could write for an audience of people who have disabilities or who have kids with disabilities, or who, who somehow interact with folks with disabilities, who you may not know what’s out there. And so I just went down this journey and thought, well, I’ll write one book and it became eight. And so I spent a lot more time writing and talking about disability and accessibility than, than I used to. And it’s sometimes it’s still a surprise to me, but it’s also been really a lot of fun.

Absolutely. Well, your new book comes out in the fall, uh, about iOS and accessibility. What are a few things that we may not know about when it comes to our I-phones and accessibility?

So there are a lot of tools on the iPhone for people with different kinds of disabilities. Some people may know that your iPhone will let you zoom in, make text, bigger people, even without disabilities use those features all the time. What they probably don’t know is that, for example, if you’re a blind person, you can use this iPhone, this thing with a glass screen that has no buttons on it. Uh, as a blind with a spoken interface, it’s called voiceover and, and the, the generic term is a screen reader and people who use computers or who use phones, can you screen readers? And voiceover happens to be the, the iPhone version of that. There are also features for people who are deaf or hard of hearing that make it easier for them to hear what’s going on their iPhone, or if they can’t hear turn all of those chirps and alerts and noises, your phone makes into a flashing lights or messages that let a person without hearing, uh, be able to interact with their phone. And then a third category I would mention is a feature called voice control, where somebody who has a physical disability and may have trouble touching their iPhone, can actually use their voice to do everything from opening an app to, uh, dictate, dictating text and, uh, editing that text, uh, completely with their voice. So, so apple has done a really good job of providing a variety of features that make it possible for people with all kinds of disabilities, even pretty severe ones to use an iPhone.

Wow. I think, I think that’s really interesting, especially, you know, especially for folks who, you know, may not have, uh, any type of issues with accessibility or they’re not exposed to that. It’s something that they just, you know, we just, sometimes people just don’t think about. Um, and so I think it’s great that that is that option is available, uh, for folks. And I’d imagine that those are all things that can just be set up in the settings of an iPhone. Yeah.

And it’s really easy to find and they’ve made it easier to find, uh, over the past few years used to, you had to dig a little bit, but now if you open up the settings app on your iPhone and you scroll a little bit, there’s a whole, there’s a, there’s a, uh, an accessibility option. And underneath that accessibility option are all those individual things I talked about, plus a lot more and they’re organized according to disability. So if you’re somebody who has a vision disability, that those settings are right at the top, and then there are physical disability related settings and then hearing related settings. So it’s all sort of organized in a way that’s pretty straightforward for you to sort of thumb through and figure out, wait, is this a feature that I might benefit from?

Right. That’s great. That’s great. So if, if someone is at the beginning of all of this, and I would imagine a lot of our listeners, I share with you, a lot of the folks who listen are in real estate or they’re small business owners, or are they just enjoy these, you know, we have interviews with all different types of, of leaders in real estate and technology and social media. We focus a lot on social media as well. If someone’s kind of at the beginning of all this and they want to do better, they want to make their content and their website more accessible. What are some tips that you might recommend again, if someone’s kind of at the beginning stages of all of this,

I’m gonna give you a really easy one that is potentially rewarding for you as well as for the audience out there. And that is something called alt text. So if you are on a website, if you’re blind and you’re using a screen reader and you can have the text read aloud to you, but you encounter an image. If that image, first of all, if it doesn’t have a caption, then the screener doesn’t have any way of interacting with it. It might just say image, or it might just skip on past it. But even if the image has a caption, the caption might not be very descriptive. It might say Jane Smith. But in fact, the picture is of Jane Smith, uh, throwing a softball or doing something more interesting, or maybe it’s a house, maybe it’s a piece of property and you you’re saying, you know, this is a, and the caption says 10 acres on a river, but the picture is actually beautifully beautiful green rolling Meadows, going down to a river with beautiful old Oak trees.

Well, the blind person who’s reading that who may be very interested in your property, who may want to know what Jane Smith is doing. Doesn’t have that information that the person with vision does. So what all text allows you to do and web CMS is like WordPress or Squarespace or any of those tools will let you do this. In addition to whatever caption you write for an image, use the alt text feature, uh, in your CMS or in HTML, if you’re writing your own webpages, uh, as an altar, as a description that is more full and is aimed at somebody who can’t see the picture. So instead of just thinking about this is a picture of a house, or, you know, this is something obvious, this house is $150,000. Well, that’d be a nice house to have because that’s pretty cheap. But, uh, this, this is, this is what this house costs.

You might say, a two stories, split level, it’s painted blue, whatever, whatever any you can. And the thing about all texts, that’s great is there’s actually a site out there somewhere called Altec poetry where people, people try to make their all texts, not only informative, but interesting and clever. And I’ve started to try to do that on websites, myself as kind of a challenge, but start with alt texts to begin with when you put an image on your site, make sure that that all text exists so that when the blind person with a screen river goes across, they don’t hear image, image, image, they hear the description of that image in the Altecs. It’s not visually present on your website. If you use alt text, all that, the person who, who sees your website will interact with as the same, whatever captioning that you’re already using, but all texts is a super simple way to get started. Um, and we’ll make a lot of people, especially, I would think in the real estate world, very happy because they’re going to get such great detail about what you’re presenting to them that they otherwise wouldn’t get.

Yeah, that’s a great tip. And I know that’s something we’ve tried to do better just on our, on our own site. I feel like it’s sometimes one of those things where, you know, you think to yourself, well, gosh, you know, is it important? Is it not important? But obviously, obviously it is important. Um, and to, to hear you explain, you know, obviously detail why it is important. I think it’s something that should be kind of a no-brainer for, uh, for most people, especially

Only if you have, let’s say it’s a real estate site and maybe you have a carousel of six or eight or 10 or 50 images. I was looking at vacation rentals the other day. And I saw people had 20, 30 images. And a lot of them had little captions and a lot of them had no description at all. And so if you have a vision, you can say, you can evaluate that, you know, that living room or whatever, but if you don’t have any vision, you have zero information. And whether the information is a little puffy and you’re trying to promote what you’re doing or whether the information is just, you know, a real straightforward recitation, it’s better than nothing. So start with all texts. Another thing I would say is, and this, this is a little less obvious maybe, but, uh, people have a tendency in some website context to put links under the words, click here, and a better way to do that is to put links under words in context.

So if I say for more information, click here, I’m going to get that that’s a link, but if I’m using a screen reader, if the link is under context words, if I let, let me think of one real quickly, if I say, um, this is a kitchen with a Sub-Zero refrigerator, maybe I, maybe I link under Sub-Zero. So maybe there’s more details under there about the size of square footage of that refrigerator or whatever. Um, the person reading along can decide for themselves, whether that’s information that’s relevant to them at this point, did they want to stop and learn about the refrigerator? Do they want to keep going? And it just provides a level of context clues within your website, linking that you don’t have their wives have, and that’s something anybody can do. Even if you can’t find all texts in your CMS, or you don’t even know what that is. It’s, there’s nothing easier than to put a link under a context, sensitive, a word clue.

That’s a really great tip. I really never thought about it that way. But I think like you said, that’s something anybody can do, you know, whether you’re blogging on your own website or even, you know, we have a lot of folks, again, who a lot of professionals that are real estate professionals who also blog like on LinkedIn, you know, and that’s another great example. You’re blogging there you’re blogging somewhere else or putting content, just adding that, um, that link in context. I think that’s really good idea. I should

Probably say just really quickly, I use the word I use the initial CMS and that might’ve passed for some folks right by that stands for content management system. And all that means is whatever software you’re using to build your website. So if it’s WordPress or if it’s Squarespace, or even if it, for your purposes, if it’s LinkedIn, like if you have a blog on some platform, I platform is probably a better generic word to use in CMS. So I apologize for getting a little more geeky than I intended right there. No, it’s okay. Geek out.

That’s great. Um, and I would also say too, you know, for those, those of you listening, if someone else manages your websites, a great conversation to have with them also, uh, you know, to see, to see about that and, um, as well. So I also wanted to kind of talk a little bit about, um, just, you know, social media, um, you know, that’s, that’s a big sweet spot for us and, and, you know, we help a lot of folks with our social media. A lot of folks come listen to our podcast because of that. Um, I know that there’s some things that you can do, like for example, Instagram now is allowing, you know, some alt text things. Is there anything else that you can maybe think of that that would help people to make their social media posts or videos or graphics more accessible?

Instagram does all texts. So does Twitter, Facebook does, to some extent, I can’t remember exactly how that’s implemented, but as important as, as, uh, uh, all text is in websites, it’s almost more important than social media, because I think people in social media, especially things like Instagram that are so visual, they’re really taking for granted that you’re having a visual conversation with the, with the audience, right? When you put something up on Instagram, you’re trying to make a visual statement and you’re assuming that somebody will go, oh, I get what you mean visually. And so it’s, it’s really important to include all texts, because there are a lot of people with disabilities with blindness who are going to go to Instagram because that’s where their friends are. And Instagram is becoming more of a platform where people message each other. So it’s not just about, well, why would a blind person spend time on Instagram?

And of course like, like we were saying, if you’re, if you’re a real estate professional, you’re going to put things up on Instagram. And one of those people might be a buyer who happens to have a disability, but going beyond that, something that I see a lot on Twitter, I see this on Facebook is where people will take text and they’ll put it within the context of an image. So you’ve seen those big boxes on Facebook that have text inside of them, or on Twitter, people will screenshot a set of tweets or some texts from an article and they’ll put it in their Twitter post as an image. Well, that’s completely inaccessible that stuff. Doesn’t read as texts, unless there are features on the iPhone, for example, that allow people to sort of get around that by doing OCR and by scanning the text. But it’s kind of a pain in the butt if you’re reading along and an Instagram story or reading along in an Instagram, still image or on Facebook, and there’s a big blank box and the box says, hi, how are you doing having it have a nice day, but I don’t, I don’t, I don’t see that I see big red box or something like that.

And so whether you use alt text or whether you have in the caption or in the post itself, the text as texts, so that somebody consume it, consume it that way, because I’ll just tell you from my own personal experience when I’m especially on a mobile device, when I’m on my phone, if text is really small, even if it’s an, I have some vision, if it’s in an image and I find it difficult to read, I may not be mad at you. I may just skip you entirely. And obviously that’s going to be bad for your business. I’m going to move on to somebody else. Right. And so even if I don’t react negatively, I’m just going to say, well, there’s hundreds of posts here. Why am I going to waste my time on yours? And you don’t want that. You want to stop me and get me to pay attention to what it is you have to offer.

I think that’s a really good point. Yeah. The, you know, it might not be, uh, an issue of you being mad about it. It’s just, you’re just going to keep scrolling. Right. There’s just like, you know, we just, that’s what we do. We just keep scrolling. So I agree with you there.

Exactly. Another thing I would say is a lot of people will post videos that don’t have any audio at all, or that the audio is only music. Uh, there is a particular, um, uh, site out there on that. They post a lot of videos on Twitter and they have a lot of captions, but, and they have a lot of visual. Uh, they have videos that have music and they have great visuals and then they have captions. So that’s great if you’re somebody who’s deaf and who wants to read all the content in the captions, but if you’re blind, that video is just music to you. And so I actually had to unfollow them because they’re, and they, they, in fact, they did some videos about disability that had no audio description or no audio over doubled any kind. And that’s just, that’s just feels not only that, that, that’s the kind of thing that actually can be hurtful because that feels like you don’t care enough to you.

You took the time to put those captions in because you wanted something in addition to the visuals, but you didn’t take the time to think about some portion of the audience that might be able to consume audio better. That would also of course include non native. Uh, you know, there’s somebody who doesn’t read as fast as maybe they would understand a language that’s not native to them. So, you know, there are all sorts of reasons that you might want to add audio description, which is the formal term for that audio description. So for example, people will have accompanies will provide full audio descriptions on, on, on movies, which is a great way for a blind person to, to watch a movie. But even if you have a short video, even if you don’t do a full audio description, if you can have the ability to, to talk about what this video is about, and you may not, like, let’s say it’s a video walk through of a home or something like that.

You might not describe every nook and cranny of that house, but you can certainly describe it in the way that you would on your site. You know, here’s a 10 room home with three bedrooms and two baths it’s in this kind of neighborhood. And that way the person knows whether that might be content that they want to save and maybe look through with a spouse who has vision or want to just learn more about you because otherwise the choice, you know, how much time do I have in a day? Am I going to sit, stick and look at your content? Or am I going to move on to the next thing? I

Think that’s really an interesting point because I, I see a lot of realtors who are creating videos. A lot of times they’re like slideshow videos, right. When it’s just sort of, it’s not quite a video, but it kind of is a video it’s, you know, pictures. Um, and they, you know, they’ll put like some jazz music behind it or something and it looks nice. Right. And there might even be some, a couple little things on screen, like master bedroom or whatever it might be. But, uh, yeah, I mean, to your point, you know, there’s not really a thought really descriptive of exactly what, what the house is all about. So I could see where that captured and obviously writing all that out below that can just make a huge difference.

Yeah. Yeah. And I probably those slide shows, usually realtors are pretty good about it, but some others that I’ve seen are not where the slides go by too fast. And as I say, I have some vision. And so I want to take time to look at the slides and maybe I have control of it. Maybe I don’t, if it’s an automated slideshow, think about how much time you want to give a viewer to look at not only the images, but read the text you have there. And even a couple of additional per slide is going to make it easier for somebody with visual disability. And who’s trying to kind of multitask with captions and all that to, to consume your content. Yeah. As you’re

Talking, it just made me think about, you know, Instagram, uh, and tick-tock has this feature now where you can do voiceover videos, which I have seen a lot more people do because sometimes they don’t want to be on camera. Right. And we see this, if they’re teaching something or, you know, for real estate, again, it’s great to be able to show a house, but not, you don’t have to be on camera. You could be showing the property, but then there’s a voiceover kind of walking through what people are saying. So, you know, do, do you see that as, as something that could be kind of helped solve this, solve this issue for people,

And then also Tik TOK has recently added captions, are there automated captions? So you can, you can enhance the captions that you create for your own Tik TOK video. You can start with the automated captions that they give you, and then you can enhance them even further. And I’ve seen people do that really effectively on Tik TOK. I don’t know the details of how that works in Instagram, but I know that they do have the voiceover facility. The thing about Tik TOK is that I don’t know if you’ve heard about this, but recently the, the Tik TOK voice changed like the default voiceover voice changed because the person whose voice they were using previously apparently had not given her consent. And so take TAC, had the switch to a different voice, and there’s been a lot of sort of complaint about the different ways. There are different ways you could use, for example, your phone’s own voice.

It did require a little more effort on your part, but if you don’t want to use the default Tik TOK voice that they give you, uh, you can actually, you know, find ways to, uh, record whatever you want to record in a voice that’s in a synthetic voice that’s available on the iPhone. As I said, the iPhone has like a fully spoken interface and I hear iPhone voices a lot. And so they require a tiny bit more effort, but if you don’t like the default voice, which many people don’t, uh, there are ways around it.

That’s interesting. Uh, and actually to your point about Instagram, you, you can actually go in and edit those captions, which is a really nice feature. I did that just recently. You know, if you’re, if you’re in a hurry, sometimes it’s just, it’s easier to, it’s kind of that idea of like, ah, well, it’s at least something’s up there, but I liked like if you’re going to take the time to do it, just take an extra 10 seconds.

Right. And, and just sort of a word of warning about that. So Google has had automatic captions on YouTube for ages. Uh, they are unaffected minutely referred to by the people who use them as crappy ones, because they’re not very good. Um, and I think some of that is a function of YouTube videos are really long and they’re trying to synthetically generate captions from the content in a way that’s pretty fast. I think Instagram, because they’re, they tend to be shorter. You have a little bit of a more, more luxury of like, you know, you create even the, even the machines want to create them more quickly. And so my theory, which I may be a little bit wrong. I mean, I, my theory though, is that that Instagram captions are probably a little bit more carefully created than, than Google’s via YouTube. So, so don’t, I guess my bottom line on that point would just be don’t count on the YouTube captions, the fact that they exist doesn’t mean they’re great. And you know, it’s always a good idea to watch the video with the captions on and see what those captions would be helpful to you, or is it misrepresent because remember, like, if, if that, if those captions are on there and they don’t represent you well, even though you didn’t write them, somebody is going to think that you did, and that doesn’t look good.

That’s very true. I also love the, the phrase crapshoot.

I did not invent that, but I laughed when I heard it.

I love that. So another question I had is what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see people making when you see that they’re trying, you know, they’re trying to make their content more accessible, but are there any pitfalls or mistakes we could avoid?

I think just not thinking about accessibility at all is the first one. And assuming that accessibility is not something that’s important to you, uh, and it, it sounds simplistic. And I know that a lot of people in your audience don’t feel this way, but there are going to be some people out there who don’t think of a blind person or a person who’s in a wheelchair as a potential homeowner, as a buyer who may have the income and the desire to become a homeowner. And that’s not true. And people’s disabilities, don’t define them and making assumptions about who your target audiences. I know most businesses are about understanding the demographics of their markets. And I don’t think there’s very much understanding of how people with disabilities fit into almost every demographic from people with a great deal of income to people with, with very little people in suburbs, people in cities and making assumptions is, is probably the worst thing you can do as far as just not sort of not getting it.

And then I think some of the things I talked about before about put E when you use text, not pulling it out of an image and not making it accessible to a screen reader. So in other words, making it possible for somebody who’s, who’s using a screen reader to interact with that as text, as opposed to an image, you, you look at it and you go, well, that’s text. I can see it’s text while the computer doesn’t know it’s text. So, um, that’s, that’s a big one because it just basically, it’s kind of like, it feels like a locked door is what it, what it really feels like to somebody who can interact with it.

Yeah. That’s a, that’s such a great visual. I mean, especially since a lot of our audiences in real estate, the lock door visual, and I love what you said, you know, disabilities don’t, don’t define us. And I could see how a lot of folks who have, you know, a disability might feel a bit locked out because of those assumptions. And so

Can I tell you a quick story? I just thought of this. Um, so I am a homeowner and when we were looking for a home, a number of years ago, uh, where I live in Austin, Texas, uh, I had a great realtor. She since become a friend. And I said to her, one of my priorities is that I want to be conveniently located to public transportation because I don’t drive. And as a realtor, somebody who lives in her car, she never really thought about that. And she did her best because she was listening to me and she was paying attention to the fact that it was important. My husband drives, and we, we, we use the car to get around. I ride with him, but I also need to be able to travel independently. And so I think having a mindset of listening to the customer who says, I need access to public transportation and learning and learning that information as a realtor, or I need physically accessible housing, or, uh, this, the house might be accessible, but there’s a curb that, you know, the needs of curb cut or something like that.

And just, just listening to the customer’s needs in terms of accessibility and, and if, and if they haven’t provided you, and if you, if you feel like maybe there’s a need, they haven’t expressed giving that person the opening and saying, are there any considerations that you have, are there any particular, uh, desires or interests or needs that you have as far as the, the kind of a place that, that you’re looking for and people in most cases will go, oh, wow. I’m so glad you asked. Well, let me tell you, I would like to be conveniently located to a public transportation and I, I need to be within, you know, this distance or whatever, but I’m new to this city. Maybe I don’t know the transit system. And so maybe it’s incumbent on the realtor to help the customer find out about that. And that’s not digital accessibility. That’s just accessibility to life.

Exactly. Yeah. And just, you know, just taking them, taking the time to ask those questions and to, and to really listen. And if you don’t know the answer, you know, like you mentioned your, your realtor, she hadn’t maybe considered that, but just doing that research because that was something that’s important to you. That’s huge. Exactly. I love that. Um, well, gosh, this, this time together has just flown by. Is there anything else that you’d like to share or anything else I didn’t ask you today that you’d like to talk about?

I guess the only thing I would say, because we didn’t obviously sit down and demonstrate accessibility features, but if you’re wondering about how, uh, a web, how a mobile device, for example, might work for a person with a disability, feel free to get inside those iPhone settings and turn on some of the accessibility settings like voiceover the screen reader, because when you do that, that gives you the ability to go out to a website or Twitter or Facebook or Instagram and experience those places online, the way somebody with a disability might. Now, I’m going to tell you that it’s going to be a little bit of a challenge. And a lot of people will be initially frustrated by the experience because they haven’t learned to use it, but it was frustrating when you first drove a car or rode a bicycle or anything that was, was difficult.

And there are resources out there online. Obviously I write some of them, but there are plenty of others that can help you sort of get started. And if you, if you’d sort of take a bit of time and put yourself in the situation of a person with disability, it, it not in not only gives you sort of empathy for the experience that person is having. I’m not looking for you to feel, uh, feel sympathy. I’m looking for you to have understanding about how the decisions that you make about the way you produce digital accessible digital content. Accessibly can give a better experience to the person who is using a screen reader or using a voice controller or some other accessibility feature.

I think that’s great advice, Shelly. I I’m going to do that because I have, I have not experienced that. And I would love to see what, what that experience is like and you know, what, what people experience when they go on my website or on social media. So I think for all of our listeners, I would encourage you to do the same thing, um, and, and check it out and, and just, you know, go down that, uh, go down that I guess, rabbit hole, so to speak to them, to try it out, you know? Um, and I also just wanna encourage you if you are not yet connected with Shelly on social media, she’s at Shelley S H E L L Y, over on Twitter. I was complimenting her early that earlier that she has an at Shelly handle. I think that’s amazing. She’s obviously an early Twitter adopter, which is fantastic. Um, we’ve also, uh, in the show notes, we’re going to link a link to her book, iOS access I know I am definitely going to be picking up a copy. I would definitely encourage you to check it out. Um, and I know you also have a podcast. Would you like to mention that we’ll also link that in the show notes below?

Sure. I appreciate that. I do a podcast every two weeks called parallel. It’s a podcast about technology with accessibility, sprinkles, as I say, is my tagline. And what that means is that sometimes we’ll talk to a couple of guests about a technology topic and we’ll include an accessibility perspective as part of the conversation. Other times it’s more accessibility than, than others, because sometimes I have a great guest too. Who’s just, you know, really focused on it. So the last episode I did was about some accessibility work that a NASA lab has done to make it possible, to understand some of the beautiful images that NASA takes of the solar system and beyond, and turn that into audio description. So you can find that at

That’s fantastic. Well, I know I’m going to check that out. I definitely would encourage our listeners to check that out as well. Um, Shelley, this has just been so amazing and I just so appreciate your time and your knowledge, um, and just, just appreciate it so much. Thank you so much for being here with us today. My pleasure. I really enjoyed it.


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